"For the record, that’s a total sweep of all of the major _heavy_ tournaments in the USA for our little local gaming store"
Can you list them please?
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Sure, I'm referring to WFB 'Ard Boyz, Adepticon's Gladiator and 40K 'Ard Boyz.
1) WFB 'Ard Boyz was won by Jordan Braun. 2) Adepticon Gladiator was won by Jon Wolf. 3) 40K 'Ard Boyz was won by Nick Rose.
There's a lot more top 10 placings (and wins) at major tournaments in the last couple of years, but I don't have that data in front of me.
All call Battleforge Games (http://battleforgegames.com/warhammer) in Austin home. And regularly play with with people like me, Bigred, Goatboy and others.
The miniature wargaming community has grown out of pretty much nothing in the last four years.
I'd wager that the Austin community is one of the top competitive communities in the United States capturing a ton of top placing at major tournaments around the country. It's especially impressive when you consider that the Austin metro area is about the same size as the Salt Lake City metro area (that truth has to hurt, ahem).
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
Thanks for the response.
That qualifies as a total sweep? One 40K tournament, one fantasy, and one Reaver + flyer tournament?
Maybe you could clarify what you meant by "major _heavy_ tournaments" because I thought you were talking about major 40k tournaments and I only see one on the list.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Sure thing, CG. By "total sweep" means that someone from the gaming group won each of the tournaments I identified.
By major _heavy_ tournament, I'm referring to tournaments with no painting scores, no comp scores and no sportsmanship scores with 100+ participants.
There aren't many of those events in a year. Most major tournaments aren't "heavy". There's only three that I'm aware of that meet the criteria: WFB 'Ard Boyz, 40K 'Ard Boyz and the Adepticon Gladiator.
And if you feel there are better tournaments to consider, please let me know -- as far as I know these are the "hardest" current tournaments.
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
All I can say now is that it's really sad there there is only one tournament that meets those standards for 40k.
Well done, that is quite a sweep.
TheKingElessar
· 3 months ago
Depends. Do you consider there to be a total absence of Sporting Score as a requirement, or can it be used as a tiebreak? If so EVERY major Tournament in the British Isles qualifies.
Saying the best in the WORLD go to Adepticon is frnakly bullshit, for the simple reason that players cannot afford to fly to the US for an event, however large, from across the globe, in toy soldiers + bigger toy soldiers. You can (arguably) say US. World is misleading at best, and at worst an outright lie.
As this is my first visit to the flywire, I should add I like the layout. It's very simple and efficient looking.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'm not aware of any major tournament in the US that uses Sportsmanship only as a tie-breaker.
I have no idea if Adepticon is the _best_ tournament in the world. I don't even know if it's the _best_ in the US (I'm sort of partial to BOLSCON myself). It helps to actually read what I said before going off on me. :)
Adepticon is the _largest_ 40K tournament in the world (as in number of attendees). I've been three times and had a great time every year. If you get a chance to come to the US to any tournament, that's a good one to choose (BOLSCON is also a good choice).
The Flywire is a micro-blog -- designed for really light blogging, but I have a tendency to write longer posts that I intend when I sit down.
Glad to have you TKE and I'd love to get your feedback on my posts!
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
I like the layout too, and the photoshopped pics are priceless.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Well, then I hope you come back and hang out a bit!
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
As long as you don't mind being heckled and keep putting out interesting posts, I'll keep coming back.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I don't feel heckled by you. Maybe I'm getting desensitized to it, lol.
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
Either I'm losing my touch or Stelek + BOLS comments + Texas have toughened you up.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'm going to pin it on the two ex-wives, lol! :)
TheKingElessar
· 3 months ago
Sorry, crossed wires. We both said 'Best' as in, players. I made no comment on the quality of the event.
As regards Sportsmanship, following this thread I read the one below, I commented there, but, in summary, good idea.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'm sure there are a lot of talented players that can't or choose not to come to events in the US. I know that I've always wanted to, but have never found the time to go an event in the UK.
But Adepticon attracts players from all over the world (something like a dozen countries, if I remember correctly) and many of those players are top players in from countries.
I do know that the best tournament players in the US generally attend Adepticon (mainly because the prize support is unreal and the competition is fierce).
Now I'm sure there are a lot of talented players that never leave their basement, but saying "the most talented players in the world that actually bother playing the game with other people" doesn't flow as nicely.
I'm still working on the Sportsmanship model, but it's coming along -- I expect to have something very effective by the next BOLSCON.
Chumbalaya
· 3 months ago
Damn guys, get butthurt lol
This whole "we're da bestest" attitude y'all have going on is getting old. Get real.
One of your guys won Fantasy 'Ard Boyz. Great for him, I'm happy for his success. It's 'Ard Boyz, stupid scenarios and super high points levels that throw what little semblance of balance Fantasy has out the window.
Jwolf won Gladiator. If I have to explain why that means precisely dick I have wasted my time.
Darkwynn won 40k 'Ard Boyz. I'm glad he enjoyed himself and only scoring a couple hundred bucks compared to winning a whole army sucks. But come on, he even said himself that he lucked out by getting 1st turn every game. And if you are judged by the level of your competition, well it's like a AAA bench warmer winning at the special olympics.
So hey, I hope everyone enjoyed themselves and got to learn something or meet new and interesting people, or at least walk off with some nice swag. Before you get all defensive, it's the internet. You put yourself on a pedestal, expect people to take shots and try bringing you down. Happens to any big fish in this little pond of ours. Does it detract from your win? No, unless you are so personally slighted that some anonymous mouthbreather you'll never meet manages to perturb you with his witty comments and monday morning quarterback BS. If you make the dumbass claim that your little club is like, totally the best at this evar, then you're just asking for it.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'm sorry that the success of our gaming club is getting old for you. It must be horrible.
To address your comments:
1) Our "guy" that won the Fantasy 'Ard Boyz was also the GW Circuit Champion '07, Baltimore GT Best General '08, Colonial Best General '09, Battle on the Beale Best General '09, BOLSCON 2nd Best Overall '09, and Sooiepalooza Overall '09.
You want to tell me why each of those tournaments suck too? It might be easier if you just tell me which tournaments don't suck and we'll just focus on those. :)
2) Have you ever played in an Adepticon Gladiator? Do you know anything about it besides what you've read? It's is the largest "no-comp, no-paint, no-sportsmanship, no-whining" tournament in the world. The most talented players in the world (you know, the ones that actually play the game as opposed to posting about how awesome they are) particpate every year.
I've known Jwolf for more than 20 years and I don't think there's a better 40k tournament player in the world. Those aren't his words; they're mine. He's an honest to god legbreaker.
3) Nick also isn't boasting of his 'Ard Boyz win - as impressive as it is - I'm boasting about it. Probably in the same way you would if one of your friends won a major tournament. Perhaps, if that happens to you someday in the future, you might understand our excitement (and our frustration when some douchebag that couldn't be bothered to compete spends hours detracting from it).
I can only hope that if you ever excel at what you love, that there's a Stelek or a Chumbalaya waiting to remind you that all your hard work doesn't mean shit.
4) Members of our "little club" played the 'Ard Boyz prelim at the same location (with a decent amount of non-"little club" members). Three of our players went to the regionals. Two of them continued to the finals. And, as you know, Nick won. That's pretty freaking awesome in my book. How'd you do?
By the way, Nick didn't go first in all 9 games of the 'Ard Boyz. When he creamed me, I went first because I seized the initiative. And how is the level of competition at the 'Ard Boyz equivalent to the Special Olympics? That's retarded (no pun intended).
Yes, luck plays a major role in every game. EVERY GAME. But when you string 9 wins together, each against a progressively more skilled opponent, you can't hang it on luck. Perhaps that makes you sleep better, but luck doesn't work that way.
And I'm not putting myself on a pedestal; I didn't win 'Ard Boyz. Nick isn't putting himself on a pedestal either. I'm putting Nick on a pedestal. Why? Because I'm proud of him and I think he's awesome. It's nice to have friends that think (and say) nice things about you.
And why do you need to bring him down? No one is trying to bring you down. I don't detract from your blog, your skill at the hobby/game or any events that you've won. Why would I want to do that? Only douchebags and children do crap like that. If you won 'Ard Boyz, I'd be talking about how awesome YOU are. Well, I would've until you pulled the "precisely dick" comment.
I'm not making the dumbass claim that my little club is "totally the best at this evar", I'm listing the wins that my little club has had THIS year. I'm sure there are clubs that have much longer and better track records (and I love that!). And maybe your "little club" is better at making army lists (or just better at Monday morning quarterbacking) -- but there's NO evidence that you guys are better players. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Bupkiss. Nunca. You want to impress people? Start winning real tournaments.
Chumbalaya
· 3 months ago
1) Well, in that case, good on him. I'm happy for his success. If you kind kindly direct me to any batreps he may have put up, I'd be interested in learning something. I don't see any posts stroking his e-peen, so all the better.
2) Yes, because allowing Forge World junk is totally what defines a major competitive event. lol I didn't go to Adepticon because I honestly had no interest after reading their lovely FAQ (rules rewrites for no reason, yayz!). I hope Jwolf had a good time and I'm sure he is a great player, but come on.
3) Good, be happy for your friend. I don't understand why you'd get all bent out of shape when somebody you don't know and will probably never meet says something. It's the internet, that's the nature of the beast.
I would have loved to go to 'Ard Boyz this year, but for round 1 I was with my family in Europe, meeting my extended family (uncles, aunts, cousins, grand parents) for the first time since I was like 3. Priorities, you know?
And if I had gone and done well, I wouldn't get so butthurt of some nobody on the inter tubes making fun of me. Of course, if they offered constructive criticism and wanted to know how the event stacked up as far as real competition or what I used and went up against, I'd be happy to answer their questions instead of having my groupies jump all over them.
4) Well, if you're the only ones at your club, then of course 3 of you will go past the next round :P I never said it wasn't awesome, good for you, hope you enjoyed yourselves.
I guess there must be a disconnect or something, because I'm not trying to bring anybody down (and if internet arguments get you down, well...). I had some questions and concerns about his composition and opposition, to see if I could gauge how good the tourney really was. Playing against 180 foot Orks and 1 Battlewagon is not good. I can be overly harsh in my criticisms, as you can be overly defensive.
So I'll just say this and quit wasting yours and my time. I don't think 'Ard Boyz or Gladiator is the best measure of a competitive player's skill, there are too many confounding variables outside of the normal ones that can skew things one way or another. That said, I'm happy that your friend was successful at the venue and I'm sure you just want to vent your excitement by shouting it from the roof tops. Sure, go for it. Just be aware that when you make claims like "my club has swept every major _heavy_ tournament" or "I could beat 3500 points or Tau with this list" then people are going to call you out on it. You can ignore it, like a normal person (I've yet to meet one who plays Warhammer) or get fired up and defensive (waste of time) or accept that some people will always have criticisms and questions, do your best to address them and get on with your life.
I really have no desire to get into some stupid ass internet feud with y'all and have any mention of my name banned everywhere. I like you guys, I respect what you do. But, just like with Stelek or anybody else who puts their name out there, I will call you on your bullshit. It doesn't help anyone and maybe you don't even realize when it comes out, but if somebody has to be the douchebag and let you know, then it will be me.
Peace
PS-Got a GT coming up in the next 2 weeks. If I can manage to get off work and go, you'll be the first to hear how I do :P
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Sweet, a numbered agument! I'm so happy -- I wish I could do this with the wife!
1) Neither Jordan nor Jon boasts about their gaming skillz (Nick, however, is a bit of a trash-talker, but a lot of fun to play). I'm guessing it's their humble, southern upbringing. Jordan did post his first article for BOLS last week (after much cajoling). He's going to be an awesome contributor.
The thing that strikes me the most about playing against Jon, Jordan and Nick is that they love the game and they have fun no matter how important the game is. They'll laugh and joke with you, share stories from their lives, and tell you not to do something stupid in the final round of the tournament. All three are great guys and deserve a pat on the back.
2) Jon didn't define the Gladiator rules, but Bigred and ) were involved in the planning committee for Adepticon. We repeatedly warned the Gladiator organizers that the Reaver was going to be a problem and that is should be banned.
I don't see how you can consider an event that allows Forgeworld to be less competitive. All of the players that attended had the same access to the army lists and models. They built the most abusive lists the could imagine and played their hardest.
It was a completely even playing field with no comp, no painting and no sportsmanship -- that's the essence of competitive.
3) Take some responsibility for the things that you say. The internet isn't a hole that you can throw shit into without getting a little on yourself. The 40K community is very small.
You sure use the phrase "butthurt" a lot. Anything you want to share?
Nick isn't "butthurt" that people are making fun of him -- he's actually having a great time with all of the attention. I, however, think it's childish to try to detract from another player's win.
4) I have no idea how many were at our first round of the 'Ard Boyz, but I suspect that it was around 30. It wasn't a small event and the competition was fierce. I knew it was going to be tough (I came in 5th) and considered going to an easier venue, but decided that playing with my friends was more important than an easy win.
5) Do you really think you aren't trying to detract from other player's wins? Saying things like winning "means precisely dick" and "he lucked out" and winning 'Ard Boys was like "winning at the Special Olympics" is detracting.
So what's the best measure of a competitive player's skill? Apparently not winning games and tournaments against players from all over the country. So enlighten me, Chum - help me understand why I shouldn't be proud of my friends that are excelling at the hobby.
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
How about this:
1) I did the dishes last week and it is your turn 2) We never go out anymore 3) I hate Spike TV, let's watch Bravo 4) That hurt my feelings, apologize or else 5) No soup for you! 6) Why does that creepy Bigred fellow keep looking in our windows? 7) Not everything is bigger in Texas 8) Your friends are idiots 9) Does this make me look fat? 10) More models? Are you fucking kidding me? 11) You're wearing that yellow helmet again! NOOOOOO!
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Lol! And you should know that I only wear my helmet in bed...
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
TMI.
Chumbalaya
· 3 months ago
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, soap opera drama and all that.
1) Great, I'd like to think I'm one of those too. No game is worth getting riled up over, it's a fun way to kick back with some friends. Chest thumping about the "best list evar" that can beat Tau with a 1000 point handicap is stupid. And recent events have given me some very interesting insights on his character. I know you weren't involved, but be careful who you put up as a paragon of virtue.
2) Forge World doesn't balance their stuff, they don't check back with GW. It's like having an Apocalypse tourney, pointless. You can have a Gladiator event or Apoc day, but throwing unbalanced stuff into the game and turning it into "biggest wallet wins" doesn't impress upon me your level of skill, just the depth of your pockets.
3) He won 'Ard Boyz, good for him. He doesn't have the best list of all time and he couldn't beat Tau with a 1000 point handicap. I'm more than happy to call out that kind of silliness. Be happy for your friends, congratulate their wins, but don't bust out with the "Austin sweeps every 40k tourney, we're so cool"
4) Good for you, I respect that.
5) Winning Gladiator is great, doesn't make you the best 40k player ever (maybe most financially secure ;) ). Winning against 180 Ork foot lists is such a gimme, playing people who don't understand how reserves work, and matching up with said expert strategists is lucky. I'm not trying to detract from his win, he's got it and nothing can take it away. I'm talking about the crowing from the rooftops about how super awesome your club is. I'll detract from that claim all day.
The best way to have a competitive event, to me, is to cut out all the crap. Unbalancing points totals, restrictive composition, easily abused soft scores, FAQ/rules rewrites, "wacky" scenarios that unbalance the game, and the like. What's so wrong with playing 3 games, 1 of each mission, 1 of each deployment type? I don't want to be the guy who won because the scenario favored my army, I don't feel like I accomplished anything. The core mechanics of the game are sound, everything works pretty well, so it baffles me that most tournaments decide to just throw it out.
Be proud of your friends, be happy for them, revel in their greatness. I'm happy for them as well, like I already said. But don't tell me you are the greatest of all time because your buddies won 2 messed up tournies.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
No worries, I'm always here. :)
1) I don't think that joking that he could beat 3500pts of Tau (he's also a Tau player, by the way) is any different than someone else saying that he could beat Nick's list with 1850pts of Dark Eldar.
When you have a "my guys vs. your guys" perspective, you miss things like that. I think that Nick saying that he could beat 3500pts of Tau was stupid -- but I also know that he was joking around. You don't know him so you thought he was being a jerk -- but you also accepted it at face value because assuming the worst fits your worldview better than giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.
2) That's actually not true. GW's design studio supervises the FW rules. Your second point is also not true -- the guy that got second in the Gladiator had vanilla marines with no FW stuff.
It's easy to make assumptions about an event you've never been to, but it's kind of pointless. Who cares if you don't like the Adepticon Gladiator? Why take the time to shit on someone else who does like it?
It's going out of your way to attack and belittle someone who's proud of their accomplishment that boggles my mind. If you won YTTHcon and I thought it was because you were buddies with the organizer, I wouldn't say anything.
As a matter of fact, I've never picked a fight on the internet over 40K. I've defended myself from time to time, but I've never singled out a player, an event or a blog for my vitriol.
3) Yes, he did win and that's very good for him. He never claimed to have the best list. No one ever claimedi it was the best list. The fact that it's not the best list is completely off-topic. He won and we posted the list that he played with (and explained why it worked for him). End of story.
He doesn't honestly think he can beat 3500pts of Tau. He was making a joke. But even if he did, who cares? Why is that something you have to mention no less than a dozen times a day? Are you Mr. Tau?
And how is it threatening to you that our one little gaming store in Austin swept those three major tournaments? To me, it's like a single store selling three major lottery winning tickets -- an interesting story.
5) It's extremely easy (and cheap) to Monday morning quarterback an event. You can't say that a game was a "gimme" and IN THE SAME BREATH say that you aren't trying to detract from his win.
My gaming club is awesome. Awesome. We have incredibly talented players here that win huge tournaments. That's pretty freaking cool. So how does that affect you? I'm not saying that your gaming club isn't awesome -- it might be. I don't know if it is or not. Why is it worth your effort to try to take the wind out of my sails? Who appointed you the Great Pride Equalizer of Warhammer.
"Uh oh, these guys are too happy and proud of their accomplishments... I need to point out that they are actually worse than players who didn't even attend the event."
6) Can you quote me as saying that we're the greatest of all time? Because I'll fix it if I did. What I said is that we swept all of the major, non-soft score tournaments in the US this year. It's a fact. Not a boast -- a fact.
It's a fact that I'm proud of and that few other clubs can claim (especially a club as new as ours). But why is it your job to try to figure out a way to prove that something we've worked hard to accomplish for four years now is nothing but a pile of crap?
I just don't understand people that hate people they've never met so much that they'll spend hours picking holes in their happiness. You've got to be empty inside to do crap like that.
Chaosgerbil
· 3 months ago
"I think that Nick saying that he could beat 3500pts of Tau was stupid -- but I also know that he was joking around."
"He never claimed to have the best list. No one ever claimedi it was the best list."
"And how is it threatening to you that our one little gaming store in Austin swept those three major tournaments?"
Ah, the internet. Things that seem harmless or joking come across way differently to a relative stranger on the other side of the series of tubes. To many people (myself included) it did come across as bragging. Apparently it wasn't Nick's intention or yours to boast, but that' how it appeared. The claim was made "this may be the deadliest build in 40k" (slight paraphrase) and how are 40k gamer egos supposed to handle that? It inspires nerd rage, in some. That's a backlash you will have to deal with when egos are on the line and things aren't crystal clear. Also, what people might intend as constructive criticism might seem like hate to you. Ah yes, the internet.
That would be great if you came out to the Seattle area sometime. I think there is a GT coming up in January and also plenty of people down for a casual game.
fluger
· 2 months ago
Yeah, well hopefully this year's ConQuest Northwest (the GT you speak of) will be run better. Last year it was kind of a hodgepodge of rules issues and such. Prize support was excellent though. Gerry (who games at Fire and Sword with us) took best overall with his mech Blood Angels.
Chaosgerbil
· 2 months ago
I'm so torn between taking Orks, Traitor Guard or Tzeentch "Space Wolves". Models from all of those armies are competing for attention on my painting desk.
Well, if the con sucks at least it will make TSHFT look better. ;)
fluger
· 2 months ago
Here's hoping!
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Oh, and good luck at the GT. Seriously. I hope you kick some ass and please, please post battle reports on your blog!
fluger
· 3 months ago
Too bad you guys are in Austin, it'd be awesome to get some games in against y'all with the group we have up here in Seattle.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I've got a lot of friends in Seattle and I've been reading about your events. I'm definitely bringing up some models to throw around the next time I'm heading your way.
It'll be like one of those business guys that always travels with his golf clubs!
You guys have a regular game night?
fluger
· 3 months ago
Friday night at Fire and Sword. We start at 2 PM and stay until 2 or 3 AM. It's BYOB as well.
I'm there nearly every Friday night, and there's always a crowd of people of varying skill/experience levels.
We'd love to have you guys come up to TSHFT next time (we run it twice annually, so the next one is in Spring '10). We do a team style event in which you can make a team of up to 3, and that means you won't play each other on the first day; unless, like what happened with my team, we were all winning, so we had to play each other for the last two games.
Comp and Sports are factored in for Best Overall, and you can win things for those prizes, but the Best General prize is just as good as Best Overall, so it's basically the same thing.
Take a look at tshft.com for the scenario rules and scoring for the missions; there are secondary and tertiary objectives to really space out those who win and those who win big... (Pardon Zen's poor grammar/spelling, he's not a native English speaker).
Anyway, let me know if you're ever in the area and I'd love to throw down! :)
All Comments
Can you list them please?
1) WFB 'Ard Boyz was won by Jordan Braun.
2) Adepticon Gladiator was won by Jon Wolf.
3) 40K 'Ard Boyz was won by Nick Rose.
There's a lot more top 10 placings (and wins) at major tournaments in the last couple of years, but I don't have that data in front of me.
All call Battleforge Games (http://battleforgegames.com/warhammer) in Austin home. And regularly play with with people like me, Bigred, Goatboy and others.
The miniature wargaming community has grown out of pretty much nothing in the last four years.
I'd wager that the Austin community is one of the top competitive communities in the United States capturing a ton of top placing at major tournaments around the country. It's especially impressive when you consider that the Austin metro area is about the same size as the Salt Lake City metro area (that truth has to hurt, ahem).
That qualifies as a total sweep? One 40K tournament, one fantasy, and one Reaver + flyer tournament?
Maybe you could clarify what you meant by "major _heavy_ tournaments" because I thought you were talking about major 40k tournaments and I only see one on the list.
By major _heavy_ tournament, I'm referring to tournaments with no painting scores, no comp scores and no sportsmanship scores with 100+ participants.
There aren't many of those events in a year. Most major tournaments aren't "heavy". There's only three that I'm aware of that meet the criteria: WFB 'Ard Boyz, 40K 'Ard Boyz and the Adepticon Gladiator.
And if you feel there are better tournaments to consider, please let me know -- as far as I know these are the "hardest" current tournaments.
Well done, that is quite a sweep.
Saying the best in the WORLD go to Adepticon is frnakly bullshit, for the simple reason that players cannot afford to fly to the US for an event, however large, from across the globe, in toy soldiers + bigger toy soldiers. You can (arguably) say US. World is misleading at best, and at worst an outright lie.
As this is my first visit to the flywire, I should add I like the layout. It's very simple and efficient looking.
I have no idea if Adepticon is the _best_ tournament in the world. I don't even know if it's the _best_ in the US (I'm sort of partial to BOLSCON myself). It helps to actually read what I said before going off on me. :)
Adepticon is the _largest_ 40K tournament in the world (as in number of attendees). I've been three times and had a great time every year. If you get a chance to come to the US to any tournament, that's a good one to choose (BOLSCON is also a good choice).
The Flywire is a micro-blog -- designed for really light blogging, but I have a tendency to write longer posts that I intend when I sit down.
Glad to have you TKE and I'd love to get your feedback on my posts!
As regards Sportsmanship, following this thread I read the one below, I commented there, but, in summary, good idea.
But Adepticon attracts players from all over the world (something like a dozen countries, if I remember correctly) and many of those players are top players in from countries.
I do know that the best tournament players in the US generally attend Adepticon (mainly because the prize support is unreal and the competition is fierce).
Now I'm sure there are a lot of talented players that never leave their basement, but saying "the most talented players in the world that actually bother playing the game with other people" doesn't flow as nicely.
I'm still working on the Sportsmanship model, but it's coming along -- I expect to have something very effective by the next BOLSCON.
This whole "we're da bestest" attitude y'all have going on is getting old. Get real.
One of your guys won Fantasy 'Ard Boyz. Great for him, I'm happy for his success.
It's 'Ard Boyz, stupid scenarios and super high points levels that throw what little semblance of balance Fantasy has out the window.
Jwolf won Gladiator. If I have to explain why that means precisely dick I have wasted my time.
Darkwynn won 40k 'Ard Boyz. I'm glad he enjoyed himself and only scoring a couple hundred bucks compared to winning a whole army sucks. But come on, he even said himself that he lucked out by getting 1st turn every game. And if you are judged by the level of your competition, well it's like a AAA bench warmer winning at the special olympics.
So hey, I hope everyone enjoyed themselves and got to learn something or meet new and interesting people, or at least walk off with some nice swag. Before you get all defensive, it's the internet. You put yourself on a pedestal, expect people to take shots and try bringing you down. Happens to any big fish in this little pond of ours. Does it detract from your win? No, unless you are so personally slighted that some anonymous mouthbreather you'll never meet manages to perturb you with his witty comments and monday morning quarterback BS. If you make the dumbass claim that your little club is like, totally the best at this evar, then you're just asking for it.
To address your comments:
1) Our "guy" that won the Fantasy 'Ard Boyz was also the GW Circuit Champion '07, Baltimore GT Best General '08, Colonial Best General '09, Battle on the Beale Best General '09, BOLSCON 2nd Best Overall '09, and Sooiepalooza Overall '09.
You want to tell me why each of those tournaments suck too? It might be easier if you just tell me which tournaments don't suck and we'll just focus on those. :)
2) Have you ever played in an Adepticon Gladiator? Do you know anything about it besides what you've read? It's is the largest "no-comp, no-paint, no-sportsmanship, no-whining" tournament in the world. The most talented players in the world (you know, the ones that actually play the game as opposed to posting about how awesome they are) particpate every year.
I've known Jwolf for more than 20 years and I don't think there's a better 40k tournament player in the world. Those aren't his words; they're mine. He's an honest to god legbreaker.
3) Nick also isn't boasting of his 'Ard Boyz win - as impressive as it is - I'm boasting about it. Probably in the same way you would if one of your friends won a major tournament. Perhaps, if that happens to you someday in the future, you might understand our excitement (and our frustration when some douchebag that couldn't be bothered to compete spends hours detracting from it).
I can only hope that if you ever excel at what you love, that there's a Stelek or a Chumbalaya waiting to remind you that all your hard work doesn't mean shit.
4) Members of our "little club" played the 'Ard Boyz prelim at the same location (with a decent amount of non-"little club" members). Three of our players went to the regionals. Two of them continued to the finals. And, as you know, Nick won. That's pretty freaking awesome in my book. How'd you do?
By the way, Nick didn't go first in all 9 games of the 'Ard Boyz. When he creamed me, I went first because I seized the initiative. And how is the level of competition at the 'Ard Boyz equivalent to the Special Olympics? That's retarded (no pun intended).
Yes, luck plays a major role in every game. EVERY GAME. But when you string 9 wins together, each against a progressively more skilled opponent, you can't hang it on luck. Perhaps that makes you sleep better, but luck doesn't work that way.
And I'm not putting myself on a pedestal; I didn't win 'Ard Boyz. Nick isn't putting himself on a pedestal either. I'm putting Nick on a pedestal. Why? Because I'm proud of him and I think he's awesome. It's nice to have friends that think (and say) nice things about you.
And why do you need to bring him down? No one is trying to bring you down. I don't detract from your blog, your skill at the hobby/game or any events that you've won. Why would I want to do that? Only douchebags and children do crap like that. If you won 'Ard Boyz, I'd be talking about how awesome YOU are. Well, I would've until you pulled the "precisely dick" comment.
I'm not making the dumbass claim that my little club is "totally the best at this evar", I'm listing the wins that my little club has had THIS year. I'm sure there are clubs that have much longer and better track records (and I love that!). And maybe your "little club" is better at making army lists (or just better at Monday morning quarterbacking) -- but there's NO evidence that you guys are better players. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Bupkiss. Nunca. You want to impress people? Start winning real tournaments.
2) Yes, because allowing Forge World junk is totally what defines a major competitive event. lol I didn't go to Adepticon because I honestly had no interest after reading their lovely FAQ (rules rewrites for no reason, yayz!). I hope Jwolf had a good time and I'm sure he is a great player, but come on.
3) Good, be happy for your friend. I don't understand why you'd get all bent out of shape when somebody you don't know and will probably never meet says something. It's the internet, that's the nature of the beast.
I would have loved to go to 'Ard Boyz this year, but for round 1 I was with my family in Europe, meeting my extended family (uncles, aunts, cousins, grand parents) for the first time since I was like 3. Priorities, you know?
And if I had gone and done well, I wouldn't get so butthurt of some nobody on the inter tubes making fun of me. Of course, if they offered constructive criticism and wanted to know how the event stacked up as far as real competition or what I used and went up against, I'd be happy to answer their questions instead of having my groupies jump all over them.
4) Well, if you're the only ones at your club, then of course 3 of you will go past the next round :P I never said it wasn't awesome, good for you, hope you enjoyed yourselves.
I guess there must be a disconnect or something, because I'm not trying to bring anybody down (and if internet arguments get you down, well...). I had some questions and concerns about his composition and opposition, to see if I could gauge how good the tourney really was. Playing against 180 foot Orks and 1 Battlewagon is not good. I can be overly harsh in my criticisms, as you can be overly defensive.
So I'll just say this and quit wasting yours and my time. I don't think 'Ard Boyz or Gladiator is the best measure of a competitive player's skill, there are too many confounding variables outside of the normal ones that can skew things one way or another. That said, I'm happy that your friend was successful at the venue and I'm sure you just want to vent your excitement by shouting it from the roof tops. Sure, go for it. Just be aware that when you make claims like "my club has swept every major _heavy_ tournament" or "I could beat 3500 points or Tau with this list" then people are going to call you out on it. You can ignore it, like a normal person (I've yet to meet one who plays Warhammer) or get fired up and defensive (waste of time) or accept that some people will always have criticisms and questions, do your best to address them and get on with your life.
I really have no desire to get into some stupid ass internet feud with y'all and have any mention of my name banned everywhere. I like you guys, I respect what you do. But, just like with Stelek or anybody else who puts their name out there, I will call you on your bullshit. It doesn't help anyone and maybe you don't even realize when it comes out, but if somebody has to be the douchebag and let you know, then it will be me.
Peace
PS-Got a GT coming up in the next 2 weeks. If I can manage to get off work and go, you'll be the first to hear how I do :P
1) Neither Jordan nor Jon boasts about their gaming skillz (Nick, however, is a bit of a trash-talker, but a lot of fun to play). I'm guessing it's their humble, southern upbringing. Jordan did post his first article for BOLS last week (after much cajoling). He's going to be an awesome contributor.
The thing that strikes me the most about playing against Jon, Jordan and Nick is that they love the game and they have fun no matter how important the game is. They'll laugh and joke with you, share stories from their lives, and tell you not to do something stupid in the final round of the tournament. All three are great guys and deserve a pat on the back.
2) Jon didn't define the Gladiator rules, but Bigred and ) were involved in the planning committee for Adepticon. We repeatedly warned the Gladiator organizers that the Reaver was going to be a problem and that is should be banned.
I don't see how you can consider an event that allows Forgeworld to be less competitive. All of the players that attended had the same access to the army lists and models. They built the most abusive lists the could imagine and played their hardest.
It was a completely even playing field with no comp, no painting and no sportsmanship -- that's the essence of competitive.
3) Take some responsibility for the things that you say. The internet isn't a hole that you can throw shit into without getting a little on yourself. The 40K community is very small.
You sure use the phrase "butthurt" a lot. Anything you want to share?
Nick isn't "butthurt" that people are making fun of him -- he's actually having a great time with all of the attention. I, however, think it's childish to try to detract from another player's win.
4) I have no idea how many were at our first round of the 'Ard Boyz, but I suspect that it was around 30. It wasn't a small event and the competition was fierce. I knew it was going to be tough (I came in 5th) and considered going to an easier venue, but decided that playing with my friends was more important than an easy win.
5) Do you really think you aren't trying to detract from other player's wins? Saying things like winning "means precisely dick" and "he lucked out" and winning 'Ard Boys was like "winning at the Special Olympics" is detracting.
So what's the best measure of a competitive player's skill? Apparently not winning games and tournaments against players from all over the country. So enlighten me, Chum - help me understand why I shouldn't be proud of my friends that are excelling at the hobby.
1) I did the dishes last week and it is your turn
2) We never go out anymore
3) I hate Spike TV, let's watch Bravo
4) That hurt my feelings, apologize or else
5) No soup for you!
6) Why does that creepy Bigred fellow keep looking in our windows?
7) Not everything is bigger in Texas
8) Your friends are idiots
9) Does this make me look fat?
10) More models? Are you fucking kidding me?
11) You're wearing that yellow helmet again! NOOOOOO!
1) Great, I'd like to think I'm one of those too. No game is worth getting riled up over, it's a fun way to kick back with some friends. Chest thumping about the "best list evar" that can beat Tau with a 1000 point handicap is stupid. And recent events have given me some very interesting insights on his character. I know you weren't involved, but be careful who you put up as a paragon of virtue.
2) Forge World doesn't balance their stuff, they don't check back with GW. It's like having an Apocalypse tourney, pointless. You can have a Gladiator event or Apoc day, but throwing unbalanced stuff into the game and turning it into "biggest wallet wins" doesn't impress upon me your level of skill, just the depth of your pockets.
3) He won 'Ard Boyz, good for him. He doesn't have the best list of all time and he couldn't beat Tau with a 1000 point handicap. I'm more than happy to call out that kind of silliness. Be happy for your friends, congratulate their wins, but don't bust out with the "Austin sweeps every 40k tourney, we're so cool"
4) Good for you, I respect that.
5) Winning Gladiator is great, doesn't make you the best 40k player ever (maybe most financially secure ;) ). Winning against 180 Ork foot lists is such a gimme, playing people who don't understand how reserves work, and matching up with said expert strategists is lucky. I'm not trying to detract from his win, he's got it and nothing can take it away. I'm talking about the crowing from the rooftops about how super awesome your club is. I'll detract from that claim all day.
The best way to have a competitive event, to me, is to cut out all the crap. Unbalancing points totals, restrictive composition, easily abused soft scores, FAQ/rules rewrites, "wacky" scenarios that unbalance the game, and the like. What's so wrong with playing 3 games, 1 of each mission, 1 of each deployment type? I don't want to be the guy who won because the scenario favored my army, I don't feel like I accomplished anything. The core mechanics of the game are sound, everything works pretty well, so it baffles me that most tournaments decide to just throw it out.
Be proud of your friends, be happy for them, revel in their greatness. I'm happy for them as well, like I already said. But don't tell me you are the greatest of all time because your buddies won 2 messed up tournies.
1) I don't think that joking that he could beat 3500pts of Tau (he's also a Tau player, by the way) is any different than someone else saying that he could beat Nick's list with 1850pts of Dark Eldar.
When you have a "my guys vs. your guys" perspective, you miss things like that. I think that Nick saying that he could beat 3500pts of Tau was stupid -- but I also know that he was joking around. You don't know him so you thought he was being a jerk -- but you also accepted it at face value because assuming the worst fits your worldview better than giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.
2) That's actually not true. GW's design studio supervises the FW rules. Your second point is also not true -- the guy that got second in the Gladiator had vanilla marines with no FW stuff.
It's easy to make assumptions about an event you've never been to, but it's kind of pointless. Who cares if you don't like the Adepticon Gladiator? Why take the time to shit on someone else who does like it?
It's going out of your way to attack and belittle someone who's proud of their accomplishment that boggles my mind. If you won YTTHcon and I thought it was because you were buddies with the organizer, I wouldn't say anything.
As a matter of fact, I've never picked a fight on the internet over 40K. I've defended myself from time to time, but I've never singled out a player, an event or a blog for my vitriol.
3) Yes, he did win and that's very good for him. He never claimed to have the best list. No one ever claimedi it was the best list. The fact that it's not the best list is completely off-topic. He won and we posted the list that he played with (and explained why it worked for him). End of story.
He doesn't honestly think he can beat 3500pts of Tau. He was making a joke. But even if he did, who cares? Why is that something you have to mention no less than a dozen times a day? Are you Mr. Tau?
And how is it threatening to you that our one little gaming store in Austin swept those three major tournaments? To me, it's like a single store selling three major lottery winning tickets -- an interesting story.
5) It's extremely easy (and cheap) to Monday morning quarterback an event. You can't say that a game was a "gimme" and IN THE SAME BREATH say that you aren't trying to detract from his win.
My gaming club is awesome. Awesome. We have incredibly talented players here that win huge tournaments. That's pretty freaking cool. So how does that affect you? I'm not saying that your gaming club isn't awesome -- it might be. I don't know if it is or not. Why is it worth your effort to try to take the wind out of my sails? Who appointed you the Great Pride Equalizer of Warhammer.
"Uh oh, these guys are too happy and proud of their accomplishments... I need to point out that they are actually worse than players who didn't even attend the event."
6) Can you quote me as saying that we're the greatest of all time? Because I'll fix it if I did. What I said is that we swept all of the major, non-soft score tournaments in the US this year. It's a fact. Not a boast -- a fact.
It's a fact that I'm proud of and that few other clubs can claim (especially a club as new as ours). But why is it your job to try to figure out a way to prove that something we've worked hard to accomplish for four years now is nothing but a pile of crap?
I just don't understand people that hate people they've never met so much that they'll spend hours picking holes in their happiness. You've got to be empty inside to do crap like that.
"He never claimed to have the best list. No one ever claimedi it was the best list."
"And how is it threatening to you that our one little gaming store in Austin swept those three major tournaments?"
Ah, the internet. Things that seem harmless or joking come across way differently to a relative stranger on the other side of the series of tubes. To many people (myself included) it did come across as bragging. Apparently it wasn't Nick's intention or yours to boast, but that' how it appeared. The claim was made "this may be the deadliest build in 40k" (slight paraphrase) and how are 40k gamer egos supposed to handle that? It inspires nerd rage, in some. That's a backlash you will have to deal with when egos are on the line and things aren't crystal clear. Also, what people might intend as constructive criticism might seem like hate to you. Ah yes, the internet.
That would be great if you came out to the Seattle area sometime. I think there is a GT coming up in January and also plenty of people down for a casual game.
Well, if the con sucks at least it will make TSHFT look better. ;)
It'll be like one of those business guys that always travels with his golf clubs!
You guys have a regular game night?
I'm there nearly every Friday night, and there's always a crowd of people of varying skill/experience levels.
We'd love to have you guys come up to TSHFT next time (we run it twice annually, so the next one is in Spring '10). We do a team style event in which you can make a team of up to 3, and that means you won't play each other on the first day; unless, like what happened with my team, we were all winning, so we had to play each other for the last two games.
Comp and Sports are factored in for Best Overall, and you can win things for those prizes, but the Best General prize is just as good as Best Overall, so it's basically the same thing.
Take a look at tshft.com for the scenario rules and scoring for the missions; there are secondary and tertiary objectives to really space out those who win and those who win big... (Pardon Zen's poor grammar/spelling, he's not a native English speaker).
Anyway, let me know if you're ever in the area and I'd love to throw down! :)