I don't see the Wolf Priest as all that awesome. It only works against one unit type, so long as you can pick at the start of the game it should be ok. But doesn't Liturgies do the same thing, only for everything?
Does he have the same stats as a Chaplain or WGBL? That would be a big deal for me.
Wolf Lord looks awfully hitty, but I was more excited about rumors of him making 1 unit of Wolf Guard Troops. Saga of the Bear is a big must have, as is Saga of Majesty (especially if you're bringing GH on their own in DPs or Rhinos, Ld8 can be a problem). How much less is the WGBL?
I do agree that once the shiny effect wears off, we'll see less Rune Priests, or at least less JotWW. Stormcaller and the runic weapon will keep them popular.
kingskonig
· 3 months ago
Liturgies of Hate is only on the charge. The Wolf Priest is always.
~kings
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
The Wolf Priests ability is preferred enemy against the unit type he chooses, where as the Chaplin just gets to re-roll to hits in the first round of an assault the he launched. The Wolf Priest's works all the time (including during a turn that your opponent assaulted, thus giving you Counter Attack on top of the re-rolls)
mkerr
· 3 months ago
1. Preferred Enemy works in every assault phase. It's like Liturgies that works all the time.
2. Wolf Priest has the same stats as the Space Marine Chaplain.
3. Wolf Lord doesn't make 1 Wolf Guard unit Troops (or if it does, I can't find the rule).
4. I'm really loving Tempest's Wrath. That's going to be the most effective psychic power in the game.
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
Wolf Lords don't make Wold Guard troops, the only one that does this is Logan Grimnar. The down side to this is that the wording used it "count as" not "taken as" which means you can only take up to 3 units of Wolf Guard, no matter if they "count" as troops or not.
GMTA
· 3 months ago
Sometimes English is really irritating. I doubt that you would be limited to 3 due to the wording.
Chumbalaya
· 3 months ago
1. Ok, that sounds like an improvement. Or at least a trade off, working on 1 unit type as opposed to everything for the charge only.
2. Eh, if it's cheap I wouldn't be opposed to it. People are going to miss healing potions and balms (FNP may be OTT though so I can see it getting axed)
3. Bummer, WGBL for me then.
4. Is that the D6 S7 shots? It's like a walking Loota battery, good stuff. Stormcaller is just too useful for me, I swear by my KFF Mek. The power that puts all skimmers and jump troops into difficult terrain is situational, but will hurt Eldar, BA, Tau, DE and the Flight of the Valkyries.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
No, Tempest's Wrath forces all skimmers, jet bikes, jump infantry and units arriving via deep strike that end their turn within within 24" to treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous.
You are thinking of Living Lighthing which has D6 shots of S7 AP5 at unlimited range.
erfunk
· 3 months ago
I think the Belt of Russ will end up being pretty standard on Wolf Lords. Sometimes people might skip them to save points, but almost never for games that matter. I need to go see this codex firsthand....
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'm a bit on the fence with the Wolf Lord wargear. Saga of the Bear for Eternal Warrior is pretty awesome on a W3 model (and a great place to ground those S8 shots), but the Belt of Russ is crazy important for the extended scrums he's going to get into.
To get a Wolf Lord with a Frost Blade, Belt of Russ and Saga of the Bear, you are looking at 185pts. For 185pts, I can have Canis Wolfborn or Ulrik the Slayer.
FiscalHermitCrab
· 3 months ago
I think it'll all depend on the fluff/power gameyness the player wants behind their army to determine how they want to spend those points. I am just going to have to get my hands on a copy of the codex before I figure out what HQ I'm going to run.
Rabianegra
· 3 months ago
I thought Lone Wolves couldn't join another unit. If they can't, there is no way they can deploy inside a drop pod that was bought as transport for a Long Fangs unit.
Totally agree on the Wolf Priest as a very interesting HQ option. Hopefully, the "shine" on Runic Priests will wear quick and we'll see different army lists and playstyles.
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
Lone Wolves can't join other units ala "Pack of One" rule.
Just like Wolf Guard in terminator armour can't join Wolf Scout units. <-- See 'Dirty Trick #2 for a way to get laughed at and maybe even tossed from a tourney..
hastur
· 3 months ago
I can't remember whether arjac had a terminator armour in rumors I read though. - if he doesn't there's nothing to prevent him from joining with scouts and throwing his hammer at the rear armour of vehicles on turn 2. - if he does then I agree he'll have to slog-foot his way across the table.
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
He comes with terminator armor and has no options to remove it.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Ah, parfait! Arjac is in Terminator armor which closes that hole nicely!
But how is Stubborn going to work with him?
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Lone Wolves can't join other units, but there's nothing that prevents them from riding in a transport. A Lone Wolf without Terminator Armor can ride in a Razorback or a Rhino (bought as a dedicated transport for a unit that's not going to use it like Long Fangs).
The Drop Pod comment was a brain fart on my part. When I looked at the Long Fangs entry, I missed the "dedicated" part. I'll fix it.
hastur
· 3 months ago
some good points.
I think in lesser games (1500pts and less) the WG battle leader wil be a better choice than the wolf lord : only -1WS for around 30pts less...
"A pretty good indication that GW feels they underpriced the Storm Shield"
if you're comparing the price of the storm shield with the SM captain, then maybe you should take into account that the later already has a 4+ ward save. that's why his shield only cost half the price of the wolf lord's one.
in fact if you consider the captain must pay +15pts to improve from 4+ to 3+, while the wolf lord only pay +5pts (in comparison to the belt), then the lord's shield is pretty cheap indeed.
"Is it wrong of me to want to buy Drop Pods for my Long Fangs just so my Lone Wolves have something to ride in?"
Can assigned transport vehicles be deployed with another unit embarked than the one they were bought for ? I don't think so.
Arctophylax
· 3 months ago
As for the starting embarked, the rules say no they can't - only the purchasing unit may. However, (Assuming you mean a tank transport) there's nothing to stop you starting the game right next to it and jumping in and gunning the engine as soon as turn 1 comes. Only disadvantage is the character may get shot at. But putting him behind the transport will stop that (unless you were intending for a Drop Pod...)
Lone Wolves can't join units though, can they? If not, then there's no way for him to start in a Pod.
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
You are 100% correct. Lone Wolves can't join another unit, nor can an IC join the Lone Wolf. The Lone Wolf has no transport options, and the only way to start him in a vehicle is to buy a Land Raider as a heavy choice and start him in it. Doing this is a total waste of points and if anyone does this they should be shamed unitl Russ returns...
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Yup, I missed the "dedicated" part when I was looking transport options at the Long Fangs. I saw it as an ommision that could lead to some fun, lol.
I'm thinking that a Lone Wolf in a Razorback might be fun. Buy the Razorback as a dedicated transport for the Long Fangs (set up normally), then embark the Lone Wolf in the Razorback.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Great point about the Iron Halo, but the price of the Storm Shield creeped up quite a bit. Consider:
a. A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield is 58pts compared to a SM Assault Terminator at 40pts.
b. A Wolf Guard in Power Armor pays 25pts for a Storm Shield compared to 15pts for a SM Command Squad marine.
hastur
· 3 months ago
yup, I agree with you on the fact that storm shield cost increased with the SW codex. I just pointed out that you unfortunately choose the only case were it could be seen as "cheaper" than for the vanilla SM ;-)
however the shield was not the only bit of wargear to increase : like in IG codex, the base troops of the army are going to be dirt cheap as long as you don't upgrade them, but upgrade cost will balance them out.
however concerning HQ choice I think the battle leader will be a far better choice than the wolf lord if the statlines and cost I saw in rumor are right (WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 3+ for 70pts - can you confirm ?). maybe he will lack some of the lord wargear/sagas options, but if he also has acces to frost blade, belt of russ and tooth necklace, that's all he needs really. why pay 30pts for WS6 when you can hit on 3+ for 10pts ? the only difference will be when fighting a WS6 foe : he'll touch you on 3+ instead of 4+...
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Not quite that good for the WGBL.
He's a WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 LD9 3+ model for 75pts. That's one less WS, W, A, and Ld for a 25pt savings.
The only real reason to take a WGBL is that he can take Saga of the Hunter.
hastur
· 3 months ago
yeah I expected something like that. now the two choices seem more balanced. still, it'll be hard to afford the lord for smaller games. I'll have to wait to see the real cost of all wargear on other units, and how much points are left once I've taken my three GH packs ;-)
Dr henry Killinger
· 3 months ago
"like in IG codex, the base troops of the army are going to be dirt cheap as long as you don't upgrade them, but upgrade cost will balance them out."
This is by no means the case for Grey Hunters. A Flamer for the squad is free, a Meltagun is only 5 points and a Plasma Gun is only 10. If there are ten models in the squad, they can take another weapon for free</>. Add all the other equipment and rules they get and they are absolutely dirt-cheap even with upgrades.
hastur
· 3 months ago
I'm sorry if I sound inaccurate on the cost of options for troops, I wasn't lucky enough to actually hold the codex in my hands, so I'm basing myself on the rumors ;-)
for example I read before that the first special was at the same price than vanilla SM, and the second one only had the price of a flamer deduced.
if indeed the first weapon is the one with the flamer-deduced price, and the second one is FREE (a plasma gun for free ? yeehehe), then yes SHOOTING hunters are dirt cheap.
Just wondering if the prices for CCweapon have changed (still 15pts for a power fist on base hunter or 25pts ?). Cause you see if the price did go up for CC options, then the cheap shooting weapons are balanced. No one I know would take only 10-men strong GH packs with only shooting upgrade (that's kind of a loss regading their counter-charge ability, and not very wolf-like).
but if CC options are still the same prices, then I grant you the hunters are dirt cheap ;-)
still I could extend the reasoning to HQ or WG choice, which are going to cost some heavy points when fully upgraded. and who's not going to take a few of them ? the similarity with IG will then become more evident, when you have to choose whether the 'feel no pain'-like option on your HQ for much points is really THAT important :)
all in all the list I've made with the partial information I have now, don't really allow me to grow my previous SW force, only change how it behave on the gaming field (with priests being more supportive characters than uber-killer like before - and I like it).
Dr Henry Killinger
· 3 months ago
A single Powerfist or Power Weapon for the squad is still 25 points and 15 points respectively. However, as there is no option for a squad leader in the Grey Hunter entry, the weapon is wielded by a model with only one base attack (so only one attack with the Powerfist, disregarding assaulting). However, this can be augmented by upgrading one model to have Mark of the Wulfen (I'm not sure how much for), which gives D6+1 Rending attacks, though this can't be combined with the Power Weapon or Powerfist. There is also an option for one model to take a Plasma Pistol, which I think is still 15 points.
In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single (up until now mandatory, I think) Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws. The new Codex has both troops at the same basic cost, with the same costs for upgrades (I think), though Blood Claws still come in bigger squads. I think this makes them more interchangeable in players lists.
hastur
· 3 months ago
"A single Powerfist or Power Weapon for the squad is still 25 points and 15 points respectively."
thx.
I think most people will want a least 1 power fist in their pack, and that basically means a wolf guard one, since for only 3 pts more you get +1A and +1Ld. And as they'll want them in rhino too, that means 9-or-less packs.
so, in the end the weapon option for GH pack are exactly the same cost as before : - 1 melta + 1 PW : before 10+10, now 5+15. - 1 melta + 1 PF : before 10+15, now 5+25 (so 5pts more). but then, one can say that wolves were already uber cheap before ;)
now, a very cheap combination would be 10 hunters with two plasmas, maybe a power weapon, placed in defensive position in cover. For only 160 or 175pts you get a good shooting squad, which still deals 30A when charged, while in cover they clearly have a strong advantage.
"In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws."
well I must've been quite an exception then, since I always prefered hunters to claws (I'd rather have better WS/BS than an extra attack on first turn, even with the previous 3pts difference).
so for my army the new points costs fit perfectly, and make it even less difficult to choose hunters over claws. I'll still take a pack of claws with a wolf priest for the theme.
Arctophylax
· 3 months ago
I'm not so sure that Space Wolves will flourish in Apocalypse - with high priced units and few numbers, they're going to feel the burn when a giant pie plate comes knocking. The likes of Supa-Gatlas will make mincemeat out of them, and they will undoubtedly succumb to horde armies. Even the humble Termagaunt has a fighting chance against them with enough numbers. If anything, they'll learn to fear Apoc in my opinion.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I see them as ideal for the Planetstrike and Apocalypse environment. While their special characters are very expensive, their foundation units are suprisingly cheap.
They certainly aren't any more susceptible to horde armies than Space Marines (and probably less Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and several of the special characters make them a lot more useful against hordes).
nerdryan
· 3 months ago
Taking a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf and then giving him Saga of the Bear to me seems to be a waste. How many strength 10 attacks are you expecting to have him hit by? Saga of the Warrior Born would be a much better use for a beast of a character.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
That should've been Belt of Russ not Saga of the Bear (fixed). Since the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf is going to be hoofing it across the board, he's going to need an invulnerable save.
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
I'm not sure about the Wolf Lord, there are so many special characters that just blow them out of the water. For a cheap choice, I'd almost always either take a Rune Priest or a Wolf Priest. Sadly, I just don't see much use for the Lord.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I love the Space Wolves special characters, but their price makes them really hard to swallow -- especially below 2,000 points.
With only two options below 200pts, you aren't going to have a lot of choice if you want a W3 close combat character.
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
I agree, they are pricey - very pricey -- but I feel you get alotta bang for your buck. I mean, look at blackmane. When you factor in his wargear, statline, and abilities - he's a bargain. Consider him, with 10 grey hunters (2 meltas, power fist). On his own, he could potentially put out 8 attacks and with SotW, who knows next turn.
Combine that with his +d3 charging attacks for the unit and a nice furious charge bubble - You could potentially cripple the enemy in 1 round of charges.
Infact, the only flaw I can find with him is that he's sadly not eternal (although does have his invuln).
I can see a lot of armies taking him, coupled with a couple of cheap rune priests (2-3 naked with jaws + other)... Especially if the runic weapon does in fact stack with other runic weapons (death of warlocks on jetbikes).
mkerr
· 3 months ago
He was the first character that I really wanted to try and he didn't disappoint. I totally forgot to use Saga of the Warrior Born but Furious Charge and those +d3 attacks were pretty awesome.
I'll test out the army again with Ragnar, a Wolf Priest and a Rune Priest and see how it plays. Although, I'm leaning toward a Wolf Priest and a Rune Priest with Jet Packs and a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod at this point.
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
I'm glad you liked him - I can just see him being insanely sick with SotW and getting stuck in with something hordey. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of tally people get with him.
At this point I'm thinking Ragnar, Rune Priest, Rune Priest although I would like to try the Wolf Priest at some point.
Not to detract from the current thread but what are your thoughts on the wolf scouts? To me they smell like Chaos Chosen without as many special weapon options... And I really don't know anyone that runs chosen.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
You mean Wolf Guard? They are pretty awesome! For 3pts more than a Grey Hunter, you get +1A and +1LD and some great options.
I expect to see Wolf Guard as an addition to close combat squads (most often with a Power Weapon or MotW).
If you take Logan, you can take them as Troops which isn't a bad deal for 18pts a model.
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
Actually I was referring to the wolf scouts - the guys with the 4+ armour save that can come in from your opponents deployment zone. It seems they are looking like a standard unit but I really don't see why.
LordSandwich
· 3 months ago
Chosen have a 3+ chance of coming in from a short board edge, and don't have all the fancy schmancy rules. OBEL scouts (unless they've killed the rule) have a 3+ chance of OH CRAP THEY'RE RIGHT BEHIND MY RUSS SQUADRON!
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
I think you missed my point.
All I was getting at was that no one uses chosen so why the big difference for these wolf scouts?
LordSandwich
· 3 months ago
And I think you missed mine.
Chosen come on the flanks. Chosen don't have move through cover (or stealth, if Wolf Scouts have stealth). Chosen have to come on on a short board edge, meaning if they get the wrong one, they need to go 6' to get where they need to go. OBEL Scouts can come right behind that Russ squadron in the center of the board, right away.
crimzzen
· 3 months ago
If you look past the wording of the abilities, they are basically the same.
Yeah chosen don't have move through cover and they come out on the flanks but they can take a rhino which essentially equates to the same thing (12" movement and 2" disembark = 14" of movement). Additionally, 1/3 of the time, wolf scouts will come out on the flank as well, without the support of a rhino. Additionally, chosen have more options for special weapons, power armour (instead of wolf scouts 4+ scout armour), and the option of taking marks to further augment themselves.
Still, not to get away from my original comment - chosen are still very rarely used (at least in my circles) and I don't see wolf scouts being used much after the initial shock wears off.
If they were troops, I think they would be better.
ASKARI
· 3 months ago
The reason no one uses chosen is that the only thing infiltrating chosen are good for is anti tank and termicides are much better and much cheaper for that choice.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Ah, when I saw Chosen I thought you were talking about Wolf Guard.
Wolf Scouts are going to be pretty common (in like 80% of the armies). They are cheap and have good weapon options (2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, Meltagun, MotW -- and you can give them a Wolf Guard or a character with Saga of the Hunter).
TheFallenCypher
· 3 months ago
Until the Space Wolves FAQ comes out its almost up in the air as to if Wolf Guard can be taken as troops or just count as troops.
The Rule under WG clearly says that Wolf Guard "COUNT AS" troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar. I don't see a need for this to be FAQ'd but I'm sure there are plenty of Wolf players who will need it...
SuperPedro
· 3 months ago
pretty sure they'll count as troops for objectives but be purchased as elites, just like pedro's boyz
nerdryan
· 3 months ago
The special characters are very expensive but at the same time the regular characters can get very expensive as well when tooled up. The extra points for Logan to take WG as troops is really worth it as is Najal in every way. The rest are hit or miss on their usefulness. Ulrik could have been much better if they would have done more with the Mentor ability. Like if Mentor was give one unit of Bloodclaws or Greyhunters +1 WS then he would be a useful character. +1 WS on one non-unique model is sort of lame.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Njal is going to be a blast (assuming he doesn't prevent you from having a second Rune Priest).
I agree. I was pretty underwhelmed with Ulrik's Mentor ability -- it should've been +1WS to the unit or Preferred Enemy to a model.
nerdryan
· 3 months ago
So from your comment there I assume you are leaning towards the reading that you cannot duplicate any power and not just combinations of powers?
mkerr
· 3 months ago
No, I read it to be "no identical combination of psychic powers".
It's going to have to be FAQ'd though -- people are going to kill each other over that one.
Fenrisian
· 3 months ago
I'm pretty sure Arjac wears TDA. You won't be able to stick him with the scout pack to outflank. The WG section stops that little trick sadly.
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
Why would you use the mark of the wulfen with a guy with a power sword, I thought it replaced all your attacks and you lose all your weapons (tooth and claw)
mkerr
· 3 months ago
You wouldn't. You upgrade a different model with MotW.
Atrotos
· 3 months ago
What about Bjorn?! I'd love to see more info and what Mkerr thinks about the named characters especially my favorite Dreadnought. I'm sure Lord Grimnar is worth a post on his own.
nerdryan
· 3 months ago
Bjorn seems interesting but he is very expensive. I am guessing that his invulnerable 5+ works like a cover save but against everything and that is not that bad to have all of the time. His stats are sexy and a BS Plasma or Lascannon is nice but man it is a great deal of point in one model that only gets one shot a turn. Also he will get owned in CC with his low Initiative.
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
yes but he does WS/BS or 6 Str 7 F13 S12 R10 and 4 attacks plus all his specials
mkerr
· 3 months ago
The twin-linked lascannon isn't really necessary with a BS6, so the Assault Cannon is probably your best bet with Bjorn.
I was a little surprised to see no drop pod option for him though.
namehere
· 3 months ago
He's essentially worthless in my book if he can't take a Drop Pod.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Yeah, that's bothering me too. Bjorn would be an awesome addition to an all-Drop Pod Space Wolves army.
Atrotos
· 3 months ago
It's all about the fluff for me. He sounds like what a Venerable Dread *should* be. There should only ever be one and he should be expensive with awesome rules that affect the whole game.
I'm all about small, elite forces that brings out the heroic part of the game - stand firm, no matter the odds!
mkerr
· 3 months ago
If Bjorn was only cheaper! At 20pts more than a Land Raider, he's going to be too pricey for the average game.
I do love his rules though, especially Living Relic!
nerdryan
· 3 months ago
Pretty much my point there. For the same price you can take a Venerable and a regular dreadnaught. You would be very hard pressed to justify him instead of two other dreads or even a dread and a pack of wolf scouts. He is just way too much.
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
I have the codex, what do you want to know about bjorn
Atrotos
· 3 months ago
Do tell, did you buy the codex or have you come across it by... other means? I buy all the codices that come out but I like to keep a pdf version too.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Very subtle, Atrotos. :)
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
ebay
Atrotos
· 3 months ago
How parsimonious of you Joe. If you really did get it off ebay you seem to have gotten the last copy because I can't find it.
Dammit GW! Why do want their stuff so badly?
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
or anyone else
Name
· 3 months ago
No, as its not evil, its what a true space wolf would do.
JoeScalise
· 3 months ago
They really need to make a new ragnar fig and soon, but it does not look like they will since they show the old fig in the new codex
fenris
· 3 months ago
I would expect we should all be on the lookout in upcoming WDs just to make sure they don't sneak in a new Ragnar model under our noses. They have a tendency to hide things in plain sight, just to mess with us. The Ragnar model really needs to be updated.
cijil001
· 3 months ago
One of the things that jumped out at me was the Techmarine equivalent on a thunderwolf with his pack of cyberwolves following. Plus a thunderhammer and a servo arm attack--not bad at all. (not an HQ I know :P )
Toggofwar
· 3 months ago
Only had a brief look at the codex, not long enough to make my mind up about HQ choices, what does everyone think are the cheapest but most effective choices available? Im leaning to using Ragnar in my foot slogging list, but need another to compliment him
WerewolfBrigade
· 3 months ago
Does the Wolf Priest have an Invuln save like the Chaplain does?
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Yup, identical statline, cost and wargear (including the Crozius and 4+ Invulnerable).
WerewolfBrigade
· 3 months ago
Awesome, Wolf Priest is sounding pretty darn nice.
Wolflord Zak
· 3 months ago
Naw people, the nasty is the Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf with stormshield and runic armor.
True toughness 5, 2+, 3+inv W3 and a 5+ save vs. psych and he can still do a sweeping advance and moves at terrible speeds. The Thunderwolf also gives him an additional attack so it counters the stormshield taking away one. After that what do you want? A S6 Frost weapon or a S10 Thunderhammer?
Now THATS my dirty trick, Saga of the warrior born or Beastslayer for this guy.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
The S6 Frost Blade is going to be awesome -- that gives him 6 attacks on the charge, even with the Storm Shield? With Saga of the Warrior Born it's a toss up between giving him the Storm Shield or a Belt of Russ (+1 Invulnerable or +1 Attack? That's a tough decision with +1A gives you of having a chance of extra attack in the next round).
The only thing I don't like about cavalry is the fact that they only move 6". The 12" charge and Fleet is awesome, but it's going to take a while to get into place.
HOWEVER, a WGBL on a Thunderwolf can take Saga of the Hunter!
Name
· 3 months ago
Quick question about the Thunderwolf, i know it increase your attack, toughness and strength by one all the while giving you rending. However, does the +1 toughness act similar to a bikers +1 toughness where it only counts against non-instant death weapons? if that's the case, even on the thunderwolf you gotta worry about those Strength 8 hits after all
Wolflord Zak
· 3 months ago
Its treu toughness so he can only be insta-killed with a S10 wound.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
That's correct. It's +1T.
Millenium_King
· 3 months ago
"Storm Shields have doubled in cost for a power-armored Wolf Lord. (A pretty good indication that GW feels they underpriced the Storm Shield.)"
I don't think this is the case. For a Space Marine Captain, a storm-shield only INCREASES his invulnerable save from 4+ to 3+. For the Space Wolf guy, it gives him a 3+ invulnerable save when he had NO invlunerable save before. That SHOULD cost more points.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
Hastur made this point earlier and it's a good one, but the price of the Storm Shield creeped up quite a bit. Consider:
a. A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield is 58pts compared to a SM Assault Terminator at 40pts.
b. A Wolf Guard in Power Armor pays 25pts for a Storm Shield compared to 15pts for a SM Command Squad marine.
Lerra
· 3 months ago
I'm getting 63 points for the Space Wolf TH/SS termie.
I doubt anyone will take the thunderhammer, however, and a powerfist/SS termie is 58 points.
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I'll have to check again, but there are two ways to give him a TH/SS. The cheapest is to upgrade his power weapon to a Thunder Hammer and then buy the Storm Shield.
But I agree, 58 points is way too much.
ghost
· 3 months ago
why no mention of iron preists, i always thought a techmarine with a thunderhammer was a pretty badass idea so i hope they get a bit of an upgrade (possibly equivilant to master of the forge?) this time round
mkerr
· 3 months ago
They aren't really an HQ choice. But I'll talk about some of the othe units as I try them out.
Last night I got a chance to try out some other Rune Priest powers, a Wolf Priest (with a Jump Pack) and Sky Claws. I'll try to put something up about that today.
Name
· 3 months ago
Errrr... a storm shield is cheaper for a wolf lord than a normal space marine captain...
Youre forgetting that a captain already has a 4+ inv.. adn is paying 15 pts for upgrade it to a 3+ and lose an attack in the process.
A wolf lord only pays 5 pts more for the same trade.
~ zilla
mkerr
· 3 months ago
I've talked about this in the comments section a few times. There's a general price increase for Storm Shields. Compare a Wolf Lord with a Storm Shield to a Space Marine Captain with a Storm Shield. Then compare the prices for Wolf Guard in Power Armor and Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor to the Space Marine equivalents.
Why the price increase? Probably because GW felt they were underpriced in the SM Codex.
Ghost
· 3 months ago
that or coupled with the wolves other options (like sagas ect) they needed a bit of a price up to level the playing field
Gurthrog
· 3 months ago
My thoughts about 40k was allways near 4 armies: Daemonhunters, 1000 sons, Dark Angels, and Space Wolfs. Finaly I get CSMs because of options for customisation of HQ. After new Codex came out my HQ get simplified. Now things that you say about SW indicate me new direction. One big advantage is that my CSMs can be easly converted to SW. But I get used to my Tzeentch Daemon Prince, and pack of 3 oblits. Again I would finaly use my bikes and jump pack infantry. It's so confusing.
All Comments
Does he have the same stats as a Chaplain or WGBL? That would be a big deal for me.
Wolf Lord looks awfully hitty, but I was more excited about rumors of him making 1 unit of Wolf Guard Troops. Saga of the Bear is a big must have, as is Saga of Majesty (especially if you're bringing GH on their own in DPs or Rhinos, Ld8 can be a problem). How much less is the WGBL?
I do agree that once the shiny effect wears off, we'll see less Rune Priests, or at least less JotWW. Stormcaller and the runic weapon will keep them popular.
~kings
The Wolf Priest's works all the time (including during a turn that your opponent assaulted, thus giving you Counter Attack on top of the re-rolls)
2. Wolf Priest has the same stats as the Space Marine Chaplain.
3. Wolf Lord doesn't make 1 Wolf Guard unit Troops (or if it does, I can't find the rule).
4. I'm really loving Tempest's Wrath. That's going to be the most effective psychic power in the game.
2. Eh, if it's cheap I wouldn't be opposed to it. People are going to miss healing potions and balms (FNP may be OTT though so I can see it getting axed)
3. Bummer, WGBL for me then.
4. Is that the D6 S7 shots? It's like a walking Loota battery, good stuff. Stormcaller is just too useful for me, I swear by my KFF Mek. The power that puts all skimmers and jump troops into difficult terrain is situational, but will hurt Eldar, BA, Tau, DE and the Flight of the Valkyries.
You are thinking of Living Lighthing which has D6 shots of S7 AP5 at unlimited range.
To get a Wolf Lord with a Frost Blade, Belt of Russ and Saga of the Bear, you are looking at 185pts. For 185pts, I can have Canis Wolfborn or Ulrik the Slayer.
Totally agree on the Wolf Priest as a very interesting HQ option. Hopefully, the "shine" on Runic Priests will wear quick and we'll see different army lists and playstyles.
Just like Wolf Guard in terminator armour can't join Wolf Scout units. <-- See 'Dirty Trick #2 for a way to get laughed at and maybe even tossed from a tourney..
- if he doesn't there's nothing to prevent him from joining with scouts and throwing his hammer at the rear armour of vehicles on turn 2.
- if he does then I agree he'll have to slog-foot his way across the table.
But how is Stubborn going to work with him?
The Drop Pod comment was a brain fart on my part. When I looked at the Long Fangs entry, I missed the "dedicated" part. I'll fix it.
I think in lesser games (1500pts and less) the WG battle leader wil be a better choice than the wolf lord : only -1WS for around 30pts less...
"A pretty good indication that GW feels they underpriced the Storm Shield"
if you're comparing the price of the storm shield with the SM captain, then maybe you should take into account that the later already has a 4+ ward save. that's why his shield only cost half the price of the wolf lord's one.
in fact if you consider the captain must pay +15pts to improve from 4+ to 3+, while the wolf lord only pay +5pts (in comparison to the belt), then the lord's shield is pretty cheap indeed.
"Is it wrong of me to want to buy Drop Pods for my Long Fangs just so my Lone Wolves have something to ride in?"
Can assigned transport vehicles be deployed with another unit embarked than the one they were bought for ? I don't think so.
Lone Wolves can't join units though, can they? If not, then there's no way for him to start in a Pod.
I'm thinking that a Lone Wolf in a Razorback might be fun. Buy the Razorback as a dedicated transport for the Long Fangs (set up normally), then embark the Lone Wolf in the Razorback.
a. A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield is 58pts compared to a SM Assault Terminator at 40pts.
b. A Wolf Guard in Power Armor pays 25pts for a Storm Shield compared to 15pts for a SM Command Squad marine.
however the shield was not the only bit of wargear to increase : like in IG codex, the base troops of the army are going to be dirt cheap as long as you don't upgrade them, but upgrade cost will balance them out.
however concerning HQ choice I think the battle leader will be a far better choice than the wolf lord if the statlines and cost I saw in rumor are right (WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 3+ for 70pts - can you confirm ?). maybe he will lack some of the lord wargear/sagas options, but if he also has acces to frost blade, belt of russ and tooth necklace, that's all he needs really. why pay 30pts for WS6 when you can hit on 3+ for 10pts ? the only difference will be when fighting a WS6 foe : he'll touch you on 3+ instead of 4+...
He's a WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 LD9 3+ model for 75pts. That's one less WS, W, A, and Ld for a 25pt savings.
The only real reason to take a WGBL is that he can take Saga of the Hunter.
This is by no means the case for Grey Hunters. A Flamer for the squad is free, a Meltagun is only 5 points and a Plasma Gun is only 10. If there are ten models in the squad, they can take another weapon for free</>. Add all the other equipment and rules they get and they are absolutely dirt-cheap even with upgrades.
for example I read before that the first special was at the same price than vanilla SM, and the second one only had the price of a flamer deduced.
if indeed the first weapon is the one with the flamer-deduced price, and the second one is FREE (a plasma gun for free ? yeehehe), then yes SHOOTING hunters are dirt cheap.
Just wondering if the prices for CCweapon have changed (still 15pts for a power fist on base hunter or 25pts ?). Cause you see if the price did go up for CC options, then the cheap shooting weapons are balanced. No one I know would take only 10-men strong GH packs with only shooting upgrade (that's kind of a loss regading their counter-charge ability, and not very wolf-like).
but if CC options are still the same prices, then I grant you the hunters are dirt cheap ;-)
still I could extend the reasoning to HQ or WG choice, which are going to cost some heavy points when fully upgraded. and who's not going to take a few of them ? the similarity with IG will then become more evident, when you have to choose whether the 'feel no pain'-like option on your HQ for much points is really THAT important :)
all in all the list I've made with the partial information I have now, don't really allow me to grow my previous SW force, only change how it behave on the gaming field (with priests being more supportive characters than uber-killer like before - and I like it).
In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single (up until now mandatory, I think) Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws. The new Codex has both troops at the same basic cost, with the same costs for upgrades (I think), though Blood Claws still come in bigger squads. I think this makes them more interchangeable in players lists.
thx.
I think most people will want a least 1 power fist in their pack, and that basically means a wolf guard one, since for only 3 pts more you get +1A and +1Ld. And as they'll want them in rhino too, that means 9-or-less packs.
so, in the end the weapon option for GH pack are exactly the same cost as before :
- 1 melta + 1 PW : before 10+10, now 5+15.
- 1 melta + 1 PF : before 10+15, now 5+25 (so 5pts more).
but then, one can say that wolves were already uber cheap before ;)
now, a very cheap combination would be 10 hunters with two plasmas, maybe a power weapon, placed in defensive position in cover. For only 160 or 175pts you get a good shooting squad, which still deals 30A when charged, while in cover they clearly have a strong advantage.
"In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws."
well I must've been quite an exception then, since I always prefered hunters to claws (I'd rather have better WS/BS than an extra attack on first turn, even with the previous 3pts difference).
so for my army the new points costs fit perfectly, and make it even less difficult to choose hunters over claws. I'll still take a pack of claws with a wolf priest for the theme.
They certainly aren't any more susceptible to horde armies than Space Marines (and probably less Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and several of the special characters make them a lot more useful against hordes).
With only two options below 200pts, you aren't going to have a lot of choice if you want a W3 close combat character.
Combine that with his +d3 charging attacks for the unit and a nice furious charge bubble - You could potentially cripple the enemy in 1 round of charges.
Infact, the only flaw I can find with him is that he's sadly not eternal (although does have his invuln).
I can see a lot of armies taking him, coupled with a couple of cheap rune priests (2-3 naked with jaws + other)... Especially if the runic weapon does in fact stack with other runic weapons (death of warlocks on jetbikes).
I'll test out the army again with Ragnar, a Wolf Priest and a Rune Priest and see how it plays. Although, I'm leaning toward a Wolf Priest and a Rune Priest with Jet Packs and a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod at this point.
At this point I'm thinking Ragnar, Rune Priest, Rune Priest although I would like to try the Wolf Priest at some point.
Not to detract from the current thread but what are your thoughts on the wolf scouts? To me they smell like Chaos Chosen without as many special weapon options... And I really don't know anyone that runs chosen.
I expect to see Wolf Guard as an addition to close combat squads (most often with a Power Weapon or MotW).
If you take Logan, you can take them as Troops which isn't a bad deal for 18pts a model.
All I was getting at was that no one uses chosen so why the big difference for these wolf scouts?
Chosen come on the flanks. Chosen don't have move through cover (or stealth, if Wolf Scouts have stealth). Chosen have to come on on a short board edge, meaning if they get the wrong one, they need to go 6' to get where they need to go. OBEL Scouts can come right behind that Russ squadron in the center of the board, right away.
Yeah chosen don't have move through cover and they come out on the flanks but they can take a rhino which essentially equates to the same thing (12" movement and 2" disembark = 14" of movement). Additionally, 1/3 of the time, wolf scouts will come out on the flank as well, without the support of a rhino. Additionally, chosen have more options for special weapons, power armour (instead of wolf scouts 4+ scout armour), and the option of taking marks to further augment themselves.
Still, not to get away from my original comment - chosen are still very rarely used (at least in my circles) and I don't see wolf scouts being used much after the initial shock wears off.
If they were troops, I think they would be better.
Wolf Scouts are going to be pretty common (in like 80% of the armies). They are cheap and have good weapon options (2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, Meltagun, MotW -- and you can give them a Wolf Guard or a character with Saga of the Hunter).
The Rule under WG clearly says that Wolf Guard "COUNT AS" troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar. I don't see a need for this to be FAQ'd but I'm sure there are plenty of Wolf players who will need it...
I agree. I was pretty underwhelmed with Ulrik's Mentor ability -- it should've been +1WS to the unit or Preferred Enemy to a model.
It's going to have to be FAQ'd though -- people are going to kill each other over that one.
I was a little surprised to see no drop pod option for him though.
I'm all about small, elite forces that brings out the heroic part of the game - stand firm, no matter the odds!
I do love his rules though, especially Living Relic!
Dammit GW! Why do want their stuff so badly?
(not an HQ I know :P )
True toughness 5, 2+, 3+inv W3 and a 5+ save vs. psych and he can still do a sweeping advance and moves at terrible speeds. The Thunderwolf also gives him an additional attack so it counters the stormshield taking away one. After that what do you want? A S6 Frost weapon or a S10 Thunderhammer?
Now THATS my dirty trick, Saga of the warrior born or Beastslayer for this guy.
The only thing I don't like about cavalry is the fact that they only move 6". The 12" charge and Fleet is awesome, but it's going to take a while to get into place.
HOWEVER, a WGBL on a Thunderwolf can take Saga of the Hunter!
I don't think this is the case. For a Space Marine Captain, a storm-shield only INCREASES his invulnerable save from 4+ to 3+. For the Space Wolf guy, it gives him a 3+ invulnerable save when he had NO invlunerable save before. That SHOULD cost more points.
a. A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield is 58pts compared to a SM Assault Terminator at 40pts.
b. A Wolf Guard in Power Armor pays 25pts for a Storm Shield compared to 15pts for a SM Command Squad marine.
I doubt anyone will take the thunderhammer, however, and a powerfist/SS termie is 58 points.
But I agree, 58 points is way too much.
Last night I got a chance to try out some other Rune Priest powers, a Wolf Priest (with a Jump Pack) and Sky Claws. I'll try to put something up about that today.
Youre forgetting that a captain already has a 4+ inv.. adn is paying 15 pts for upgrade it to a 3+ and lose an attack in the process.
A wolf lord only pays 5 pts more for the same trade.
~ zilla
Why the price increase? Probably because GW felt they were underpriced in the SM Codex.