Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Ghost — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 05:26:48 -0000

that or coupled with the wolves other options (like sagas ect) they needed a bit of a price up to level the playing field

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

ASKARI — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:42:44 -0000

The reason no one uses chosen is that the only thing infiltrating chosen are good for is anti tank and termicides are much better and much cheaper for that choice.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:23:32 -0000

That's correct. It's +1T.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:23:02 -0000

I'll have to check again, but there are two ways to give him a TH/SS. The cheapest is to upgrade his power weapon to a Thunder Hammer and then buy the Storm Shield.

But I agree, 58 points is way too much.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:21:41 -0000

They aren't really an HQ choice. But I'll talk about some of the othe units as I try them out.

Last night I got a chance to try out some other Rune Priest powers, a Wolf Priest (with a Jump Pack) and Sky Claws. I'll try to put something up about that today.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:20:06 -0000

I've talked about this in the comments section a few times. There's a general price increase for Storm Shields. Compare a Wolf Lord with a Storm Shield to a Space Marine Captain with a Storm Shield. Then compare the prices for Wolf Guard in Power Armor and Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor to the Space Marine equivalents.

Why the price increase? Probably because GW felt they were underpriced in the SM Codex.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

crimzzen — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:33:03 -0000

If you look past the wording of the abilities, they are basically the same.

Yeah chosen don't have move through cover and they come out on the flanks but they can take a rhino which essentially equates to the same thing (12" movement and 2" disembark = 14" of movement). Additionally, 1/3 of the time, wolf scouts will come out on the flank as well, without the support of a rhino. Additionally, chosen have more options for special weapons, power armour (instead of wolf scouts 4+ scout armour), and the option of taking marks to further augment themselves.

Still, not to get away from my original comment - chosen are still very rarely used (at least in my circles) and I don't see wolf scouts being used much after the initial shock wears off.

If they were troops, I think they would be better.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

SuperPedro — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:53:07 -0000

pretty sure they'll count as troops for objectives but be purchased as elites, just like pedro's boyz

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Wolflord Zak — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:18:09 -0000

Its treu toughness so he can only be insta-killed with a S10 wound.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

hastur — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:28:24 -0000

"A single Powerfist or Power Weapon for the squad is still 25 points and 15 points respectively."

thx.

I think most people will want a least 1 power fist in their pack, and that basically means a wolf guard one, since for only 3 pts more you get +1A and +1Ld. And as they'll want them in rhino too, that means 9-or-less packs.

so, in the end the weapon option for GH pack are exactly the same cost as before :
- 1 melta + 1 PW : before 10+10, now 5+15.
- 1 melta + 1 PF : before 10+15, now 5+25 (so 5pts more).
but then, one can say that wolves were already uber cheap before ;)

now, a very cheap combination would be 10 hunters with two plasmas, maybe a power weapon, placed in defensive position in cover. For only 160 or 175pts you get a good shooting squad, which still deals 30A when charged, while in cover they clearly have a strong advantage.

"In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws."

well I must've been quite an exception then, since I always prefered hunters to claws (I'd rather have better WS/BS than an extra attack on first turn, even with the previous 3pts difference).

so for my army the new points costs fit perfectly, and make it even less difficult to choose hunters over claws. I'll still take a pack of claws with a wolf priest for the theme.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Gurthrog — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:01:25 -0000

My thoughts about 40k was allways near 4 armies: Daemonhunters, 1000 sons, Dark Angels, and Space Wolfs. Finaly I get CSMs because of options for customisation of HQ. After new Codex came out my HQ get simplified. Now things that you say about SW indicate me new direction. One big advantage is that my CSMs can be easly converted to SW. But I get used to my Tzeentch Daemon Prince, and pack of 3 oblits. Again I would finaly use my bikes and jump pack infantry. It's so confusing.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Dr Henry Killinger — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 06:16:28 -0000

A single Powerfist or Power Weapon for the squad is still 25 points and 15 points respectively. However, as there is no option for a squad leader in the Grey Hunter entry, the weapon is wielded by a model with only one base attack (so only one attack with the Powerfist, disregarding assaulting). However, this can be augmented by upgrading one model to have Mark of the Wulfen (I'm not sure how much for), which gives D6+1 Rending attacks, though this can't be combined with the Power Weapon or Powerfist. There is also an option for one model to take a Plasma Pistol, which I think is still 15 points.

In my opinion, this has all been done to re-balance the ratio of Grey Hunters to Blood Claws in most armies. Almost every Space Wolves army I've seen anywhere, there has been a single (up until now mandatory, I think) Grey Hunter squad, with the rest of the army being made up of Blood Claws. The new Codex has both troops at the same basic cost, with the same costs for upgrades (I think), though Blood Claws still come in bigger squads. I think this makes them more interchangeable in players lists.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

hastur — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:24:08 -0000

I'm sorry if I sound inaccurate on the cost of options for troops, I wasn't lucky enough to actually hold the codex in my hands, so I'm basing myself on the rumors ;-)

for example I read before that the first special was at the same price than vanilla SM, and the second one only had the price of a flamer deduced.

if indeed the first weapon is the one with the flamer-deduced price, and the second one is FREE (a plasma gun for free ? yeehehe), then yes SHOOTING hunters are dirt cheap.

Just wondering if the prices for CCweapon have changed (still 15pts for a power fist on base hunter or 25pts ?). Cause you see if the price did go up for CC options, then the cheap shooting weapons are balanced. No one I know would take only 10-men strong GH packs with only shooting upgrade (that's kind of a loss regading their counter-charge ability, and not very wolf-like).

but if CC options are still the same prices, then I grant you the hunters are dirt cheap ;-)

still I could extend the reasoning to HQ or WG choice, which are going to cost some heavy points when fully upgraded. and who's not going to take a few of them ? the similarity with IG will then become more evident, when you have to choose whether the 'feel no pain'-like option on your HQ for much points is really THAT important :)

all in all the list I've made with the partial information I have now, don't really allow me to grow my previous SW force, only change how it behave on the gaming field (with priests being more supportive characters than uber-killer like before - and I like it).

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

hastur — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:13:32 -0000

yeah I expected something like that. now the two choices seem more balanced. still, it'll be hard to afford the lord for smaller games. I'll have to wait to see the real cost of all wargear on other units, and how much points are left once I've taken my three GH packs ;-)

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Lerra — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 02:11:57 -0000

I'm getting 63 points for the Space Wolf TH/SS termie.

I doubt anyone will take the thunderhammer, however, and a powerfist/SS termie is 58 points.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

TheFallenCypher — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 02:01:17 -0000

Until the Space Wolves FAQ comes out its almost up in the air as to if Wolf Guard can be taken as troops or just count as troops.

The Rule under WG clearly says that Wolf Guard "COUNT AS" troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar. I don't see a need for this to be FAQ'd but I'm sure there are plenty of Wolf players who will need it...

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Name — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 01:44:23 -0000

Errrr... a storm shield is cheaper for a wolf lord than a normal space marine captain...

Youre forgetting that a captain already has a 4+ inv.. adn is paying 15 pts for upgrade it to a 3+ and lose an attack in the process.

A wolf lord only pays 5 pts more for the same trade.

~ zilla

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

Dr henry Killinger — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 01:14:40 -0000

"like in IG codex, the base troops of the army are going to be dirt cheap as long as you don't upgrade them, but upgrade cost will balance them out."

This is by no means the case for Grey Hunters. A Flamer for the squad is free, a Meltagun is only 5 points and a Plasma Gun is only 10. If there are ten models in the squad, they can take another weapon for free. Add all the other equipment and rules they get and they are absolutely dirt-cheap even with upgrades.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

LordSandwich — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 01:03:58 -0000

And I think you missed mine.

Chosen come on the flanks. Chosen don't have move through cover (or stealth, if Wolf Scouts have stealth). Chosen have to come on on a short board edge, meaning if they get the wrong one, they need to go 6' to get where they need to go. OBEL Scouts can come right behind that Russ squadron in the center of the board, right away.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:42:57 -0000

Ah, when I saw Chosen I thought you were talking about Wolf Guard.

Wolf Scouts are going to be pretty common (in like 80% of the armies). They are cheap and have good weapon options (2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, Meltagun, MotW -- and you can give them a Wolf Guard or a character with Saga of the Hunter).

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

ghost — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:26:01 -0000

why no mention of iron preists, i always thought a techmarine with a thunderhammer was a pretty badass idea so i hope they get a bit of an upgrade (possibly equivilant to master of the forge?) this time round

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

mkerr — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:07:55 -0000

Hastur made this point earlier and it's a good one, but the price of the Storm Shield creeped up quite a bit. Consider:

a. A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield is 58pts compared to a SM Assault Terminator at 40pts.

b. A Wolf Guard in Power Armor pays 25pts for a Storm Shield compared to 15pts for a SM Command Squad marine.

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

crimzzen — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:52:21 -0000

I think you missed my point.

All I was getting at was that no one uses chosen so why the big difference for these wolf scouts?

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

LordSandwich — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:10:12 -0000

Chosen have a 3+ chance of coming in from a short board edge, and don't have all the fancy schmancy rules. OBEL scouts (unless they've killed the rule) have a 3+ chance of OH CRAP THEY'RE RIGHT BEHIND MY RUSS SQUADRON!

Re: The OTHER Space Wolves HQ Choices

WerewolfBrigade — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:21:28 -0000

Awesome, Wolf Priest is sounding pretty darn nice.